Aug 10, 2021
Dr. Jane Vella and Val Uccellani talk with Ellen Turgasen RN about the axiom “Don’t do for the learners what they can do for themselves.” Ellen met Jane in 1985 when she took a Popular Education ‘bootcamp’ prior to flying off to Peru to work as a nurse for Maryknoll. From then on, Ellen was hungry to learn more about how to live the principles and practices of Dialogue Education. This particular axiom gained new meaning for Ellen in her work as a massage therapist – where doing for the learner has tangible consequences.
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This show is produced by Global Learning Partners and Greg Tilton Jr, with theme music composed by Kyle Donald.
Read the transcripts for the episode below.
JANE
Welcome to Simply True, with yours truly, Dr. Jane Vella. On this podcast, we sit down with dear friends and colleagues from over the years to do one thing: explore the simple truths behind some of my favorite sayings in Dialogue Education.
VALERIE
Hello, I’m your host for today’s episode, Valerie Uccellani, co-owner and senior partner at Global Learning Partners. Today, Jane and I are joined by Ellen Turgasen, to explore the axiom “don’t do for the learners what they can do for themselves.” That’s an axiom that’s guided me for decades, ever since I was fortunate enough to begin my learning with Jane; and really look forward to today’s conversation. Thank you all for being here, and welcome to those who are joining us. Let’s begin by rooting ourselves in history. So, Ellen, tell us a bit about yourself and how you came to know Jane or Global Learning Partners.
ELLEN
Good morning, Val and Jane. I’m happy to be here sharing in this conversation. I am a registered nurse and I live in Madison, Wisconsin. And in 1985, I volunteered with an organization called Maryknoll to work as a nurse in Lima, Peru with their organization. And as part of our training, Jane was invited to give a workshop, on what was called at the time “Popular Education;” and of course, we had studied the work of Paolo Freire, the pedagogy of the oppressed, as part of our preparation to go to developing countries and work as volunteers. I was mesmerized by the experience of what we now know as Dialogue Learning-Centered Education, the whole process was enlivening, and it opened up a longing in me to have this kind of dialogue and to be able to teach in this way, and facilitate learning. I loved it. I loved it. I loved Jane, and we had a week with her, and off we went. So, I landed in Peru with the seed having been planted, and the desire to teach in this way, but I didn’t have the skill set. I knew I wanted to, I knew what it felt like, I could taste it, but I often reverted back in my health education classes in the community, to the standard banking method, what we call “giving lectures and handing out handouts” and working in a more traditional way. Although, something that did stick with me was safety and lavish affirmation. So, I don’t think – I don’t think I did any harm with the ladies in the community that I worked with, but I knew – I always knew I could have done better. I was left with this taste in my mouth of wanting to do it better, like I had experienced, but not really knowing how. Then after the three year contract, I came back to the United States, and I worked in Milwaukee, Wisconsin at a inner city clinic with Hispanic women and Hmong women. I was assigned, of all things, to teach the Hispanic women parenting classes. We were given a protocol and the instructions of the playlist and, so, I would teach. Again, falling back on my default and I could see their eyes glaze over, I could see they were just like, we – we have to do this to pass our requisites whatever program that they were in, but this is so boring, and my back started to seize up. I started having back pain as I would teach these classes, of like being a five week thing, and I remember one Sunday night preparing the class, standing up because I had tension in my lower back. I called Jane, I looked up, I don’t know how I got her number, but I thought gee, I’d never forgotten her name Jane Vella, Jane Vella. So, somehow I found her her number from Milwaukee, Wisconsin on a Sunday night, I remember the call. I was standing up, these papers were all in front of me for less than numbers, five of the parenting class, and I said – she said “hello.” I said “Jane, you don’t you don’t know me, you don’t remember me, I was in the Maryknoll class of 1985,” this was in 1991, “and I can’t live a day longer without knowing what you can teach me.”
VALERIE
Oh my word!
JANE
What a story, and it’s true. I can vouch for it. It’s true!
ELLEN
And Jane said, “come on down, come on down. You can stay with me, I have a fellowship program.” And the rest is history. September 1991, I arrived at her door, I stayed in her home. I took all the classes that she taught, for a nine month period, and that’s how I – that’s how it all started. The best part of it all, our friendship continues to this day.
JANE
Amen to that girl!
VALERIE
Oh, Ellen, what a great way to start off our short conversation today. And you know, I think so much of what you shared – although of course your story is unique, right? Peru to Milwaukee – and yet so much of what you share, kind of being enlivened with, through your first exposure to the approach and then having this longing and yet not quite the skill set to go along with it. I think that’s something that a lot of us can relate to and a lot of the listeners here today as well. So, thank you so much for sharing that and I’d love to turn our attention a bit to our axiom for the day. And we’ll get back to our stories around it, but really focus us around that axiom “don’t do for the learners, what they can do for themselves.” And Jane, I’d love for you to share a bit about where that axiom comes from, and what it means to you.
JANE
Well, Val, as you and Ellen know, I’m addicted to teaching. I’ve been doing it for what, 80 years or so, and it’s an addiction. So, I need – I needed this axiom, because I would say to people, for example, “now, when you set a learning task, or when you ask an open question, don’t answer it.” And I would immediately say, “like,” and I’d go on for a half hour. And they’d all say, “Jane, Jane, you see what you’re doing.” I said, “well, I’m just giving you an example,” but really, I needed this axiom. It has served me as you said, Val, I think of it every time, I think of it in the podcasts, and you know how quickly I take over the management of it, Greg, your job is in jeopardy. Everybody’s – everybody says “duck, Here she comes.” And that’s not a principle or a practice.
VALERIE
Yeah, yeah. You know, Ellen, I want to hear more next from you, please, what this axiom means to you, but I can’t resist the temptation to say something that it means for me as I’m listening to you, Jane. You know, I think part of our temptation, “to do for the learners, what they can do for themselves” is that we, as teachers, and as facilitators also learn by doing. Everyone learns by doing. So, we also are tempted to- to do, right? Rather than to step back and and invite the learners to do.
JANE
Oh, that’s beautiful. Val, it’s a kindly – a very kindly way, but that – and it’s true. It’s true.
VALERIE
It’s, yeah, thank you, Jane. So Ellen, back to you, “don’t do for the learners, what they can do for themselves.” What does that mean to you?
ELLEN
Yes Val, in my particular profession, now, I went on to become a massage therapist. About 25 years ago, after the Global Learning Partners fellowship and all, I became a massage therapist and in my massage therapy practice, part of it is an active stretching program, therapeutic stretching. And it, it is in the therapeutic stretching aspect of my work that, “don’t do for the learners, what they can do for themselves.” The reason is, I can stretch people, I can do the movements for them, and it feels good, it’s beneficial, and there are good results, but there is no learning. There is no learning when I do it for them, even though it’s positive and even though they come in wanting that most of the time, “please stretch me and make this feel better.” So, the learning that I want to facilitate and has the most potential for growth and for ongoing benefit, is two-fold. One, is for my clients to do the movements, to learn how to do the movements precisely, because muscle attachments are precise. The movements that are the “correct way,” to facilitate range of motion and to avoid injury, they’re precise as well. So, how to do the movements precisely, but also, then, it’s interior for the brain to program that vector as the correct vector, because we can all get used to having our shoulders be forward, our neck be forward, just started referring to computer work now, but the brain can set a default of things to be in a – in a more optimal function of function. And that’s the learning, we want to do it correctly so that the brain programs itself to have that correct posture, and – and range of motion to be the norm that it always guides us towards.
JANE
Beautiful.
ELLEN
Though that’s the – that’s the learning. And that’s why I’m so committed to, not just doing it for people, but because that learning doesn’t occur, if I just do it for them. The brain goes to sleep, if I’m just doing it passively, for them. It likes the feeling, but it’s like having elevator music on, it just likes the feeling, but it doesn’t pay attention to what we’re doing. So, we have to pay attention to what we have – to what we’re doing. So, what I have – a question that I have to ask myself, in working with this axiom is sort of a holding the opposites, “don’t do for the learners, what they can do for themselves.” I have to know, what can the learners do for themselves? And what can’t they? What is it that they – they couldn’t just come in and do for themselves, and do this with safety? And one of the things they can’t do for themselves, from the get-go I could say, “raise your tricep and bring your elbow to the to the ceiling,” but I have to really guide them as to what the proper vector is, then they can do it themselves. So, I have to teach that proper vector, and also the optimal sequence, you don’t move – stretch your finger before you’ve got the whole arm loosened up. So, it’s kind of, there is a sequence to it. In 1991, Jane said, for every one hour of in front of the of the classroom, in front of the group that you’re working with, there’s six hours of preparation.
JANE
Absolutely.
ELLEN
And for me, the six hours of preparation, I create PDF’s with pictures, and written descriptions of every stretch. I have mp4 videos of every one of the stretches with me demonstrating them, and I put them on a flash drive individualized for each client. The safety comes in, especially with adult learners, I’m going to show you maybe five or seven stretches, but you don’t have to remember them today, you just have to know how to do them in this one moment. You have to know that you know, because you’ve just done it one time, but I will provide you with everything you need, to go home and repeat it. So, that – that’s one thing that I do is part of my quote unquote, six hours of preparation. And then the other thing is, I have on my iPad an app that shows the proper muscle movements so they can see – so, their eyes can see this is what we’re kind of aiming for. And now let’s do it in your body. And then after all of that, now you do it. Now you do it, and you experience it.
VALERIE
Watch out Ellen, because, you know, half of our listenership will be flying into Madison for a session with you, I’m serious. But you know, what you’ve done in shedding light on that axiom is also shed light on the role of the teacher, you know, so clearly, I think a lot of folks misunderstand when they hear some of these axioms in here about this approach, that really what we’re doing as teachers is abdicating ourselves from any responsibility, it’s like, let the learners do it – not at all. I mean, your example so beautifully described, right? That the role of the teacher is a critical one and just determining the sequencing, the guidelines needed, the supports needed, and providing those in a really thoughtful way. Thank you so much.
JANE
Beautiful, beautiful.
ELLEN
And if I may, if I may add, I took this training for active isolated stretching, was from 2011 to 2015. And I took nine, three to four day seminars during that time. I remember one class, one instructor, and one moment of internal and external rotation of my shoulder, he had me do it, and he waited. And he said, “go in, go in, and now do it,” and he waited for me to find what was moving, not from the outside in, from the inside out. He waited for my brain to find it. And then he said, “now, do it,” and I almost was taken to a place, you know, look just to another place with my concentration. I’ll never forget that. I will never ever forget – I felt it. I felt it, and that’s what I want to replicate with my – but it was one cl- out of nine seminars it was one movement where it really really sunk in, what we’re talking about here, “don’t do for them, what they can do for themselves,” because that’s learning. That’s – that’s an experience that one can replicate, search for again and – and find.
VALERIE
Yeah, yeah, what a great analogy. You know, what’s what’s happening in the brain there, is what we’re all striving for, right? As teachers and as learners, that that deep learning from the inside out. I love that phrase. And I wonder, as someone who’s practiced Dialogue Education for some time now, what’s one final wisdom or reflection you’d like to leave us with today?
ELLEN
I don’t have a lot of health care providers that use this approach, that I know personally. And that’s sometimes some of the frustration of healthcare, that the default is that we’re the experts and we give the knowledge out. And that’s what I’ve always known that I wanted to be a little different from; but something in my personal life with my – my other spiritual studies and things, I’m becoming very aware of the potential of the “we space.” When we’re talking, there’s – there’s Val and Jane and Ellen talking. And as we are present to our own selves, and listening, and present to what’s going on, and also present to the other two people here, there’s a potential, there’s a – there’s a space between us, that is pregnant with potential. Where – where for new – new learning, new knowledge can – can be born, where things that aren’t yet, can become. And that, to me, is what the magic of the dialogue in Dialogue Education, it’s creating these spaces with the structure of the seven steps of preparation and with the structure within the learning event, with the tasks, with the discipline, with the desire, with the safety, with the respect, with all of it in place. It’ll – it creates a space that potentiates a new future, a new knowledge, a new- it potentiates, something – something that isn’t yet.
JANE
Yes.
ELLEN
And that, really is what draws me in, that draws me in, because we know what we have now, but we don’t know what we have in potential.
JANE
Absolutely. The purpose is peace.
ELLEN
Right.
VALERIE
Thank you so much, gosh, so much you’ve given us, so much to think about, the potential of the “we space.” We’re all going to have to just clear our schedules for the rest of the day and contemplate these really powerful insights.
JANE
Beautiful, Val.
VALERIE
Hey, we’re gonna go to closing in a moment. But I want to share, Ellen, with you, in terms of long term impact, something that you said to me, I swear it must be 30 years ago now, in- in Jane’s kitchen. We were cleaning up from having had a wonderful “dialogue over dinner,” and I don’t know if you remember this moment, but we’re cleaning up the kitchen, and you were talking about how you were bringing your – your learnings from Dialogue Education into your everyday work as a nurse. And we were talking about open questions in particular, and you said that you had been trained before leaving someone’s room, of a patient in the hospital, to say like at the door, “Anything else?” You know, and they usually say, “no,” and you leave, but you decided to replace that with an open question. And to say, and I’m obviously – I’m paraphrasing what I must have heard 30 years ago, but you decided to say instead, “What else can I do for you before I leave today?” And the first time that you used that, the elderly man in the bed, in the hospital said, “Well, you know what? One of my slippers got caught under the bed – is under the bed and I can’t reach it. Can you do that for me?” And it was so easy for you to do it, and you – he would have never asked and you would have never known, had you not changed just the way you extended that invitation before leaving the room. Do you remember that?
JANE
I remember that story. I tell it all the time. I do.
VALERIE
You do! You do Jane, because it has lasted with me. I am telling you, Ellen, I want to thank you. Yes.
JANE
Thank you, Val! I tell that story, Ellen, every time I can.
VALERIE
I think of it, I just- it makes such a difference. These small adjustments. Yeah.
ELLEN
Yeah. I tell Jane, she’s the – the, you know, really the queen of open questions. I like every conversation with Jane because they’re open questions. Open questions are the key. They’re the cornerstone of this, aren’t they?
VALERIE
They are.
JANE
They are.
VALERIE
Well, thank you both so much for today’s conversation. And I think it’s time to move to closing, you’ve already offered so many great additional axioms and wisdoms through this time we’ve had. So, thank you both so much for being here, and thanks to all who are participating with us from a distance today.
JANE
And thank you, Val, for beautiful leadership here. Thank you and Ellen, hey!
VALERIE
Have a great day.
ELLEN
Thank you both.
JANE
Thanks Valerie. Thanks Ellen.
OUTRO (MEG)
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Simply True with Dr. Jane Vella. This podcast is produced by Global Learning Partners and Greg Tilton, with music by Kyle Donald. If you enjoyed the show, consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts or your preferred podcast player. To find out more about Global Learning Partners, whether it be our course offerings, consulting services or free resources, go to www.globallearningpartners.com. We invite you to sign up for our mailing list, subscribe to our podcast and find us on social media to continue the dialogue.