Dec 20, 2022
Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or virtually anywhere podcasts are found!
This show is produced by Global Learning Partners and Greg Tilton Jr.
Theme music: ‘Pretty Face’ by Una Walkenhorst.
Read transcripts for the episode below.
MEG
[INTRO MUSIC] Hello, and welcome to Shift the Power: A Learning-Centered Podcast, where we talk about the revolutionary power of a learning-centered approach. Through this podcast, we hope to inspire creative thinking and provide practical tools and techniques to deepen learning through dialogue.
TYLER
Hello, and welcome everyone to Shift the Power. I’m your host, Tyler Phillips here with Global Learning Partners. I am joined today by a very special guests and different kind of guests than we’ve had in our podcast before. Although he is a professor, his teaching and instruction takes place not in the traditional classroom or training room or even in an office within an organization. But it takes place in a martial arts studio. So just a little bit of background. A few years ago, I had the good fortune to walk into a Brazilian jiu jitsu studio in Brooklyn, New York, and meet Professor Stewart Carroll and his wife, who’s also a Martial Arts professor. And over the past several years, I’ve been journeying with learning this martial art and seeking master of it. And it’s been such a valuable journey for me personally, but also there’s lots of learnings I think, for our community of designers and teachers and facilitators. So we are joined today by Professor Stewart Carroll. Professor Stewart Carroll is a Brazilian jiu jitsu black belt, martial arts practitioner, instructor and owner of Grail Jiu Jitsu, based in Carmel, New York. Welcome, Professor Carroll.
STEWART
Pleasure to be here. Thank you, Tyler.
TYLER
Thanks for being here with us. So just to start off, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your background? Sure.
STEWART
I was born in Manhattan and raised in Rockaway Beach, Queens. And I would say my martial arts journey begins in my father’s bar, which was located in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. I have one sibling and on Sunday mornings, my father would usually take us to his bar, it would be officially closed, but we would go in there and clean up and restock and sweep and mop. And some of the regulars would stop by; you’d open the door, let them in. And you had a couple of bartenders, the full contact karate practitioners. And just the whole crew in there was was a pretty tough crowd. It’s Vietnam vets and karate guy to be sitting there with a bucket of sand, just like dipping their hand in the sand as they’re just talking about whatever. The TV would be like professional wrestling or something. There was a guy there who was a collector for the longshoreman union, really tough guy. And he’d be asked me to punch him in the stomach and see how hard my punch was. And that kind of was my start, in a way. Neither of my parents went to college, my father did a couple years of high school, he had like a serious case of polio. But as a result, my mother was really like intent on having us be well educated. And I went to Poly Prep High School in Brooklyn. And then I got a BA in Psychology from Weslyn University. And while I was at Wesleyan, I started a clothing company with a business partner I had who was living in Boston. And eventually, I moved to Boston. And it was around that time that the first UFC is came out. I started doing some boxing training there, Boston, but this clothing company grew and it took a toll on me, you know, like physically and mentally. And it was kind of wearing me down, I wasn’t a right fit for me. I ended up selling my share of the business to my business partner. I kind of went on a journey like how I have to feel better, you have to feel better mentally and physically. And there was a book “Healing with Whole Foods” by Paul Pitchford, which was kind of pivotal for me. And I just started studying this book and looking at dietary regimens, and how that influences the body, and I ended up going to school for Chinese medicine. And I was in school there and that was in Manhattan, Pacific College of Oriental Medicine. And that was also doing like, meditation practice, and Qigong, and was like, really into all that. And then a couple years later, I was walking down an aisle in Barnes and Noble. And on the floor, there was a book and it’s called “The Gracie Way.” And on the cover, there’s this photo of what’s called the Gracie train, where all the Gracies are lined up and they’re holding each other’s shoulders in a single line. And I just brought me back like wow, I remember seeing that in those first couple UFCs. I hadn’t watched any since those first like three or four. So picked up this book and basically just read it cover to cover, and found out the end of the book like wow, there’s a school in Manhattan near you know Hensel Gracie school, I went over there and I started my training. And that was the beginning of my jiu jitsu journey.
TYLER
That’s so much of that is new to me. Thank you for sharing and I think there were some whispers of that you literally stumbling upon jui jitsu, you stumbled upon the book in the library, it was on the floor. So thanks for that background. A lot of talk a little bit about your experience as a teacher, of course, an instructor, but also as a learner. But sounds like you found Hensel Gracie school in Manhattan. And I know that you’ve put in countless hours towards this martial art. Can you talk a little bit about as a learner, what your experience was like learning jiu jitsu, who your instructors were and how did you learn most effectively along along your way?
STEWART
Well, when I started at Renzo Gracie school, they just started like a two tiered program prior to that, they just started a basic program. And I had a teacher Professor Magno de Gama, and at the same time was an advanced class that was taught by John Danaher. So after a year in the basic class, I moved into the advanced class as a white belt. So year and a half in, and I got my blue belt, and then my purple belt and brown belt and blackbelt. But I was a really eager student; I found the material to be super stimulating. And both of those teachers, like were very passionate about the art. And that was engaging, and it was just something where I was like, wow, like I can’t believe all of my interests are in this one activity. Like, in one hour, I can train my mind, train my body, have a social element, you get to hang out with people. And I was just really happy, I was really grateful to find this art. The teaching was excellent. And I found myself becoming less anxious as a person. And that felt good. And it felt therapeutic. It felt like the greatest healing modality that I had come across. So my experience as a student was one of having greater levels of commitment, I would say, greater levels of like trusting, learning to trust the teacher, learning to trust the process, learning to trust myself that, hey, I’ll be able to overcome obstacles because it’s not an easy journey. It’s demanding in many ways, it’s literal, blood, sweat, and tears. After our classes and our sessions the other day, I found myself wondering about retention, like learning retention. Like the most effective ways, I would imagine, is to spend as much time as you can, on the mat in the environment, doing movements and things. But you’ve encouraged me and others in the past to also write a bit about the learnings or experience. But what other ways have you found useful. As was already mentioned, like a big part of it, for me was writing, the act of writing. Even if I were to never read it, again, was big, but then not just writing, but then organizing the writing so that I could see common principles, recurring principles, and then highlighting what the principles were. Because then you can draw the specifics of particulars back to the principles. So the whole process is kind of like, how do you take something that’s really chaotic, turn it into something orderly. In addition to the writing, I find visualizing helpful, even if I’m not doing a move, just the visualizing of it, just the thinking about it, can be very useful. And being curious, is a big one. That’s something that first Danaher was like he had this curiosity where it’s like he would see a move, and he would just see something else that other people didn’t see where it’s like, oh, that’s a cool move. Somebody else might say, Oh, that’s cool. Like, let me try it. He took like a deeper look. And so there’s that at work as well just like, seeing things anew like keeping that white belt mindset, just being like curious and kind of fascinated, like, what is actually happening? What’s really going on here? What’s the deeper level? What’s the deeper principle? I found those methods to be helpful. As you also mentioned, the language of movement is felt. So you have to feel so there’s that as well. Like it has to be transmitted physically. That’s the main thing. Humans have a tendency to confuse the means and the end, right? Maybe somebody wants money so they can have a happy life and they forget about the happy life and just want money. Or you want to learn jiu jitsu, but then you just get focused on just the techniques. It’s important to to remember as Jigoro Kano said, it’s a means to an end. If you had to spend as much time as you have to spend to become like really proficient at jiu jitsu, just to like, ward off an attack by somebody, maybe it would be worth it, but for most people not. But the reason why we do it is it improves our state of being. So that was a big part of teaching jiu jitsu for me, was, it’s not just the game of who won or lost, there’s something deeper than that. It’s not what you get. So you become the process. It’s not, how do you control someone else, it’s more about self control.
TYLER
You started moving into where I wanted to go next, naturally, which was this concept of axioms. So an axiom is defined as a statement or proposition, which is regarded as being established accepted or self, evidently true principles can probably fall into that realm as well. And there’s many that have come up in in jiu jitsu and our training in our classes. I find those are very intentionally placed at the end of class. So so and just for our listeners, just quickly, the kind of arc of the classes: there’s a warm up kind of preparing the the mind and body with several calisthenics and also kind of foundational jiu jitsu moves, which for anyone who’s ever tried it is quite challenging in the beginning, certainly, and you build that condition. And with that comes confidence. After the warm up, there is a section of instruction where professor with a training partner demonstrates and teaches the technique in that language, that’s very accessible. When you describe that like, being able to explain it to a child. To me, that’s like an very inclusive way to teach. Because you’re making it accessible for all different types of learners. After the technique is demonstrated a few times you then partner with someone to practice the technique. And I noticed that professor, you do that very intentionally as well, gradually, we do know each person has an opportunity to do a walk through. So that’s you explaining your step one here, step two here, step three, and then followed by here, just kind of time to practice that technique. And that’s kind of the basic arc of at least the basic class. And then in the more advanced classes, you’re able to do kind of a live live training, sparring, for lack of a better word. What I’ve always appreciated about the learning environment in your schools has been, you’re there to help each other. It’s a mutual benefit. It’s not about winning, but it’s beyond that, it’s helping each other grow. So then at the end, I don’t know if this is an official term, but I heard what somebody refer to it as a mat chat. So when we all kind of line up, calm, calm the body, come to mind, take some deep breaths, have good posture. And then it’s at that point where you speak just for a moment or two about these principles that have come up. And I’d imagine are intentional to that particular class or that particular technique that we’ve learned. And I just will, there’s a lot I’m curious about there. But can you just maybe speak into that a little bit? Is that the intention behind that mat chat is to have those principles at the end? Is that by design? And and if so, why is that the way that is?
STEWART
it is by design, and just find that at the end of a class, you’re in a heightened state of awareness. And when you’re breathing heavy, you’re in a receptive state. The way of the martial arts, as I understand it, is harmony. And that offers an opportunity for balance where, okay, we’ve done the movements. But now we’re going to practice stillness, which can be hard to do. You know, that could be the hardest part for some people and something that people don’t necessarily welcome. When I want the freedom to move, I don’t want to be still. So there’s the motion to the stillness. And then there’s, we’re learning defensive maneuvers of offensive maneuvers as well. But to stand up straight with your chin up in the air, that’s like a very vulnerable position. So we have the motion and the stillness now. And then the defensiveness and the vulnerability. And there’s a saying, the things that we most need to remember are the things that we’re most likely to forget. So I find myself personally needing lots of reminders about things and principles. So it’s a good time when people are in a receptive state, to remind ourselves like, the things that we may have forgotten but we know are important.
TYLER
One of my sayings that has stuck with me throughout and I’ve asked you to out in the past, and I find myself using it as a facilitator, myself and with other individuals I work with is to focus on the positive. Just that very simple sentiment of, you know, it’s human nature to if you come across something challenging maybe to start going in a direction mentally, where you’re just beating yourself up over how did I get that wrong. Or I’m so bad at this or whatever, internal narrative, but just that encouragement of focusing on the positives on the mat, as a martial arts practitioner, as a consultant, as a facilitator, in really any line of work. It’s applicable, I would say, one question I asked you in the past about that was, Why, though, why focus on the positive, and not the negative? Do you remember your response to it? It was, it’s not that you’re not tending to those things that you want to get better at and develop, but because human nature will kind of lead you down that road, if you feed that, you know, it may feel insurmountable to overcome that obstacle. And then you start questioning why you’re even on that path to begin with. And then all of a sudden, you’re off the path and you’re sitting and you’re not coming to class anymore, or you’re not wanting to teach a class or facilitate or take on a new project. Is that in the sphere?
STEWART
Absolutely. You know, it’s that positivity to the exclusion of negativity, the negativity, of course, is extremely real, and the positivity is real, we’re not talking about some kind of delusional positivity. We’re talking about real actual positive, which there’s a lot of when you do it, you practice, it’s like, wow, there really is a lot of positive that I’m overlooking here. But it’s pretty simple to observe and people on the martial arts path, that it’s an uphill climb, and it’s demanding in many ways. And if you’re going on a hike, and you’re going uphill, and you have too much to carry, it’s just not possible, you’d have more of a burden than you can bear. Like, you will not go up that mountain, it’s just becomes impossible. So when you’re on the martial arts journey, other people are around you, and you can see, like, who’s doing what, and who’s persisting and who’s not. And the people who are overwhelmed by that inner critic by that negative-itis, like, they won’t make it. I can’t think of a single case where like, the person was focused always on the negative, and they got to blackbelt, there’s naturally resistance. So you want to practice like finding the positive. It takes training for most people, for me, for sure, you know, so for most of us, we have to train it. So yeah, if you want to go up that mountain, the martial arts, I found it a very useful tool is to start with the positive at the end of class. See where your inner dialogue goes, as you mentioned, and replace the negative with the positive. It doesn’t mean then forget the negative like after that, you can say okay, now, what is not going well, what can be improved here. But if we just go there, if you take a an activity, which is already challenging, which is already frustrating, it just becomes not possible.
TYLER
The other one that I find myself often referencing in my daily work, is there’s the way and then there’s your way, which is teaching that you’ve shared in the past. And I find that so true to the work that that we at Global Learning Partners do a lot of it is facilitation. We even have a course called The Art of Facilitation where we are teaching and help facilitators develop their craft. The principles that we use for our approach, the models, the methodology, I see that as the way just as in jiu jitsu, there’s this is the way but there’s also the important part about making it your own. Helps with ownership and engagement and interest, curiosity as well. But it can be challenging as a coach or a teacher I’d imagine to there’s power in that saying right, because once people may hear it differently, oh, they may just hear, Oh, my way. So then I just start doing my way and then forget about the way. But it’s really that balance. Any thoughts to share just on that particular saying?
STEWART
Well, for one, the dojo is the place where you practice the Do, which in Chinese is Tao, which is the Dharma, which is many different words, but it’s where you practice The Way. And there’s an interesting paradox there. As you mentioned, it’s like, some people say, No, I want to do it my way. I want to be individual. But the funny thing is the most individual expressions come out of doing it the way when you do it the way there’s like an unconscious individuality that comes out. It’s just remarkably unique. So we can put aside our doubts, our anxieties, our inner dialogue, our expectations, you know, and our ego, all the things that kind of can lead to injury by the way, on the mat there. It really comes out more unique as an artist as a martial artist, the most unique expressions, the most individual expressions are people doing it the way like adhering to the foundation or sort of principles.
TYLER
Talk just for a second about principles, then this has come up already a couple times in our discussion. One principle, which I think is so interesting to think about in the context of martial arts, and the Dojo is safety. So one of the adult learning principles is in a classroom setting is psychological safety, where you as a learner, you’re able to engage, share without fear of being embarrassed, strapped down, over-challenged in a way that makes you feel like you’re not in the right place. And if you perceive threats from your other classmates, or from the teacher, maybe the teacher dismisses your comment, or the facilitator dismisses you, you’re then now kind of on alert, and you’re not able to really let other information in, you’re just not in a good state, as you mentioned before. But it’s in a martial arts environment, in an atmosphere where safety, physical safety is a real something that needs to be tended to. And in different schools, I think there’s different attention to that type of safety. My experience in your programs has always been, I’ve been really able to learn because I feel safe, even though we’re practicing techniques where yeah, in a self defense situation, they can be effective. So I’m just curious to hear a little bit about specific ways that you generate safety, physical safety, yet also psychological safety, like people, as you said, you want people to be curious, and you want them to learn and stay engaged, what comes to mind, when you think about creating safety in your learning environment?
STEWART
The environment of safety results, from a culture of control, that kind of speaks to the ability to control oneself. That’s why, you know, at the end of the class, as we were talking about earlier, like the ability to stand still, the ability to control your mind, the ability to check in with yourself and say, like, am I nervous and distracted right now? Or can I be calm and focused? The mind moves the body. And if the mind is angry, and the mind is emotional, that’s okay. Like the body then does, intense movements. And that’s where you’ll see like a lot of the injuries. So, in order to create an environment where you minimize the injuries, there has to be this sense of like, Hey, we’re working on controlling ourselves, we are going to be responsible and mindful. And we’re not going to be angry, we’re not going to just freak out, which of course, still might happen on occasion, it was challenging. Training martial arts is close contact and jiu jitsu is a force. But if you can instill this culture of, hey, what we’re doing here is not just controlling other people, it’s also like, very much control yourself, control your mind, control your emotions, control your ego, and you have to be allowed to be the fool. Because we’ve all been there, like you cannot start a martial arts journey and be like, Hey, guys, I’m the expert. It’s like, No, you’re gonna be the fool. And you’re the courageous fool; everybody starts there. And that has to be okay. So it can’t be where I’m afraid to try something I’m afraid to look stupid, I’m afraid. It’s like, no, that’s fine. Because we’ve all been there. So just installing that mind body connection. And that we’re all on the same page. And it’s, again, this notion of balance, we do have a competitive aspect to live training. But we have a cooperative aspect to live training, there’s an agreement here, we’re not going to use style techniques, which are, you know, illegal in jiu jitsu, you’re not going to gouge somebody’s eye, you’re not going to fishhook them, you’re not going to pull their hair. And you’re also not going to go crazy, because we’re working together. So we have a cooperative element and a competitive element. And it’s not good when it’s too far in either direction. You know, if it’s too cooperative, you’re not going to be getting skill. If it is too competitive. Okay, now you’re likely to get hurt. So, the recurring theme of let’s create some balance here so that we can cooperatively work towards our end goal, which in the martial arts, hopefully for the most, the ultimate goal iss black belt and beyond.
TYLER
Yeah, and the word discipline comes to mind for me there, being able to control your inner monologue and your emotion, anything that’s going on in your life as you step onto the mat, you’ve said that before. Like, you don’t know what your classmate is going through in their personal life, and they come through and that the mind controls the body, then yeah, that might dictate their intensity. Same with teaching or facilitating a training or a class, if you have a lot going on which we all as people do, especially in this day and age. Training, that discipline to be able to show up in a relaxed way so that you can reach your goals and do the work that you intended to do as you came in. There’s one more thing that I’d love to hear your thoughts on. One of the models that we talk about in our work is this holistic teaching model. And you already mentioned this a bit. It’s this idea that learners and adults learn best when they’re given opportunities to work with content or information in their head, heart and hands. So in their head, that’s the knowledge bit; the heart is attitudes, feelings, beliefs on an issue and the hands, this is the skill this is actually doing. How do you approach that intentionally in your teaching?
STEWART
As you well know, those three things are inherent in jiu jitsu, like jiu jitsu is the education of our head, our heart and our hands. But I do like to kind of highlight those different elements in a way where the head side will equate that with the mind. That’s sort of the problem solving activity. Jiu jitsu as a problem solving activity, and jiu jitsu, in that regard is a science. But then there’s another side where jiu jitsu is an art. Jiu jitsu requires your creativity, and your imagination, that is an art that comes from the heart, then, of course, what we do is grappling and the origin of the word is from Chaucer, where it’s the art of gripping. So you need to have the practical skill, which comes through in the hands. But you do need the theoretical knowledge as well, which is in the mind, but then you have to do it uniquely, you put your imagination, your creativity into it, which, for me, is the art. So I would say that’s inherent in our training,
TYLER
I love that interpretation of that model. So thank you for that. I’ll move us along to our closing, this has been phenomenal. Thank you so much for sharing all that you’ve done. And having this dialogue with me. Just in closing perhaps in the context of we’re now coming to the end of our session and like the mat chat, often a good time to share one practical tip of wisdom, what would you share with our listeners who are predominantly likely teachers or instructors or facilitators and in the adult learning realm, any last practical tip for them,
STEWART
I would say, a reminder to myself and everyone is to cultivate an attitude of gratitude. To be a teacher is an amazing thing. It’s, you know, sacred I would say, and it is something special and to have students and to be a student and to be a teacher is a type of relationship is amazing, and something to be so grateful for. So I would encourage everybody to move towards that strong side of gratitude. It precludes a lot of that anxiety and negative thoughts, as we all know. But just a reminder, I’m just grateful to be here with you today and grateful for the listeners and just like to encourage gratitude.
TYLER
Awesome, well Professor Stewart Carrolll, thank you so so so much for joining us and for sharing your wisdom and knowledge. It has been truly pleasure and I look forward to many more conversations, much more dialogue in our jiu jitsu journey together. So thank you.
STEWART
Sounds good, Tyler. My pleasure. Thank you.
MEG
[OUTRO MUSIC] Thank you for tuning into another episode of Shift the Power: A Learning-Centered Podcast. This podcast is produced by Global Learning Partners and Greg Tilton with music by Una Walkenhorst. To find out more about Global Learning Partners, whether it be our course offerings, consulting services, free resources or blogs, go to www.globallearningpartners.com. We invite you to sign up for our mailing list, subscribe to our podcast and find us on social media to continue the dialogue. If you enjoy the show, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts or your preferred podcast player. [OUTRO MUSIC FADES]