Feb 15, 2022
Troi Bechet founded the Center for Restorative Approaches in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. For Troi, a restorative approach offered an alternative to the culture of punitive justice systems – a way to resolve conflict and build equity through dialogue. Through their creativity, innovation, and a vision of peace at the center, restorative circles and learning-centered approaches have much in common. Listen to this revealing podcast episode to hear more.
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This show is produced by Global Learning Partners and Greg Tilton Jr. with theme music by Una Walkenhorst.
Read transcripts for the episode below.
MEG
[INTRO MUSIC] Hello, and welcome to Shift the Power: A Learning-Centered Podcast, where we talk about the revolutionary power of a learning-centered approach. Through this podcast, we hope to inspire creative thinking and provide practical tools and techniques to deepen learning through dialogue.
I’m your host Meg Logue and I’m joined today by my illustrious new co-host, senior partner at GLP. Tyler Phillips. Hello, everyone. And today we are joined by Troi Bechet, the Founder and CEO of the Center for Restorative Approaches to talk about the deep connections between restorative and learning centered approaches. Troi, we are so happy to have you here with us today. Welcome, welcome.
TROI
Thank you. It’s a pleasure.
TYLER
Thank you so much for being here with us today, Troi. To start us off, I was hoping that you might tell us a bit about yourself and your organization and your journey, how you got into restorative justice work?
TROI
Well, I founded the Center for Restorative Approaches in 2008. For Louisianians, and probably others who will realize that that was shortly after Hurricane Katrina. We were in the midst of recovery. In some ways, we are still recovering, in many ways, we’re still recovering. But back then I was working at an organization actually called Neighborhood Housing Services. And we were looking at ways to ensure that there was equitable voice to the recovery process. And we actually began using these approaches in that way. How do you ensure that people who might have different ideas about how to ensure that New Orleans came back in a way that was equitable, had a voice in that process? We were also seeing a significant number of suspensions in schools. Back then we had schools that had suspensions rates as high as 70%, which meant that 70% of the students in the school were being suspended. We began to really understand more the impact of the school to prison pipeline. So, we have been doing this work, as I said, since 2008. And we have done close to 4000 circle processes since then, and as a way to ensure, as I said that people have a voice in deciding how to move forward. And when conflict occurs, how to move forward, when there are issues of harm, and to do so in a way that is equitable, that is inclusive, that is holistic, that is healing.
TYLER
Thank you so much for that Troi, it sounds like you were able to find opportunity in that terrible disaster many years ago.
MEG
Troi I’m just picking up on one of the things that you mentioned, really this kind of theme that undergirds all of the work that you do, which is the word equitable. And also, this, this idea of really giving voice to the people who were a part of the conflict. And, you know, in our world at GLP, we use a learning centered approach. And that kind of came out of this desire to disrupt the kind of traditional Western approaches to learning. Think like sage on the stage or a lecture style where learning is imparted onto you, as a student, and you don’t really have any agency in that learning process. And so, the purpose of our approach is really to shift that typical power dynamic between the learner and the teacher in order to enrich the learning experience. And I’m curious what parallels you see to a restorative approach with kind of that that initial intention and that disruption.
TYLER
There are significant parallels I have had the pleasure of looking through and beginning to understand those. We call them guiding principles in the world, we have 11 of them in restorative approaches, inclusion being one. And I know that’s the first principle that you all have, and inclusion really fosters equity. To have people that have these diverse points of views that have diverse experiences, to be able to ensure that they have voice and agency as you said, I love that word. Because many of us often have so little of it. And when we are looking at whether it’s learning or problem solving, or just ensuring that there is voice in decision making, many people often don’t, and restorative approaches really seeks to ensure that there is equality of voice. That if decisions are being made about a situation that you are impacted by that, we work to ensure that your voice is heard, that your voice is sought, that your voice is honored in that process. We also really look at this issue of respect that GLP also focuses on engagement on affirming your strengths and honoring you. Or maybe even perhaps a step above affirmation that there is really an honoring of you as an individual human being and an honoring of your importance to whatever community it is that we are working in. So there is significant overlap in the kinds of principles that that undergird both the learning principles of GLP, and the guiding principles for restorative approaches. Wow, Troi, thank you for that I want to pull through this thread of principles, because, as you very adeptly just named, the learning centered approach that we use is principle driven. And we have six core principles for how adults learn. And yet we find in working with great organizations and great people such as yourself that, yeah, oftentimes others are needed, depending on the context. You know, one of the principles that I was curious to hear from you about that we hold very close to our hearts that GLP is this principle of safety. And I feel like in recent time, this principle has been questioned a bit. And in the context of conflict resolution, or when you enter a space, such as you do in your work, where there is present tension, that’s what you you know, you’re stepping into, how do you see the principle of safety? Its importance, how do you see it showing up in your work?
TROI
Well, it is our first guiding principle, create a safe space where no harm is likely to occur. So to shorten that, you know, you can think of the medicines kind of guiding principle do no harm. Really ensuring, particularly since we work a lot in conflict situations, that when we bring people together, that we spend, actually more time preparing than we do in bringing people together. I have personally spent on very complex conflicts that situations 60-70 hours, preparing to bring people together. Now, these are instances where maybe there are 20 people involved in the conflict. And it means talking to each person, understanding what is what has happened from their perspective, understanding what needs they have in regards to that particular situation. A lot of our work is really centered around assessing and addressing needs, which is something we don’t often think about or think about enough. Let me say that. We often think about emotions that people having in conflict situations or other kinds of situations. But we don’t think from the lens of needs. And really every action that we take is undergirded by the desire to have some kind of a need met. Conflict really is when there is a disagreement between people that feel for whatever reason that some particular need is threatened. So we spend really a lot of time relationship building, so that we have a level of trust with the people that we are engaging with, which also helps to lay a foundation of safety. You feel safer around people that you trust, you feel safer when you understand explicitly, that there is an intention to have your needs met. And as we share that intention, we are very open and honest. I know transparency is one of the learning principles at GLP. That we are transparent that the goal is to have people to come together in dialogue in a way that allows everyone’s needs to be met in a way that works for everyone. And we are restorative approaches actually in general are pretty successful at making that happen when we bring people to circle around the world. About 95-96% of the folks who have come together in circle are able to reach an agreement About 93-94% of those agreements are kept. So whatever they decided was important in terms of reparation of harm, whatever they decided was important in terms of having the needs met of those persons who are involved. More than 90% of the time those needs are met by that standard that was developed during that circle process.
MEG
Wow. Nothing like amazing data to back up what you kind of in your heart know is the right process, but those are very impressive numbers.
TYLER
Yeah, I was just gonna say the same.
TROI
And I tell we, you know, we do a lot of training, obviously. But when you know, I talk to folks about it I, I am incredibly proud of the work that we do at CRA, obviously. But this is just not CRA, this is adhering to these kinds of guiding principles, these ways of interacting, that allow everyone that is using these processes with fidelity to get those kinds of results around the world.
MEG
Troi I’m really curious if you could tell us a little bit more about those processes and kind of what does it look like in the room when you’re in a restorative circle to to create that space? What structures or techniques do you use to, to make space for the dialogue and for healing, and for resolution?
TROI
I have to say that, you know, I know I said this earlier, but it’s really important to reinforce the understanding that it is the preparation that allows us to get there. Really helping to ensure that we have a trusting relationship with those persons who are involved, that we have built a relationship with them, that there is transparency around the fact that we are more than neutral. That we really are lifting up the value of every person in the room and helping to adhere to that honoring of our humanity in that space that we are clear about that. And really, we build relationships in the circle as well.
That is one of the historical ways of doing this work. Because this this work has been done for eons. Most indigenous populations use some sort of restorative circle practice in their community to do two primary– well, three primary things. One, to build relationships intentionally, to nurture those relationships, and then to repair those relationships when the relationships were harmed. And they use circle work in order to do that. So the historical practices, half of the time that you spend, when you bring people together, is really just about intentionally building relationships between those people, before you talk about what conflict is. And that’s really important that we spend that time to really lay a foundation for that. And often when conflict happens, we just want to come up with the solutions. You know, we’re, we’re all very smart people. Sometimes we know that more than we should. What are you talking about. I’m smart, I have figured out a solution to this. Let me tell you what it is. And we have figured out a solution before we actually know what the problem is because we only know from our own personal perspective. And what we have seen and what others have seen who do this work is that you don’t recognize that you have missed some important information that are critical to having a solution that’ll work for everyone.
But we use three primary questions when we are talking about conflict. What happened, hearing from the person from their perspective. What has happened and really giving them the time to share that and not stopping them and saying no, that’s not what happened, this is what happened. Just letting them talk whether or not you disagree with the way that they are telling what happened. Honor them in a way that allows them to tell their story. That and then the next question is, you know, who was impacted by what happened and how were they impacted? And allowing them to share that and then talking about how do we move forward in the most positive way. We use those three questions when we are working through conflict. So hearing everyone’s perspective in a way that allows that agency that you talked about, we have people talk in an uninterrupted way, often in the very historical way of doing this work, they use what’s called a talking piece, which means that you’re holding an object that is the talking piece. And if you’re not holding that object, then you are invited to listen. And if you are holding the object, then you are invited to speak, which means that you essentially have to wait your turn to speak.
Now, because we live in Western society where patience is, you know, it’s a virtue that we don’t also often adhere to. That is hard for some folks to wait their turn. And so we do modify that. We don’t necessarily use it for the entire two hours, which is generally you know, between an hour and two hours is how long circles generally take. Most people don’t have the tolerance for waiting their turn for two hours. But we bring it back when we feel that there is inequity inequality in voice to ensure that everyone feels safe talking, that also helps to ensure safety. So we use those kinds of techniques. But really the most important part is understanding everyone’s perspective from the beginning, ensuring that if we often have people to say, “Troi, if you put me in that circle, I just might lose it.” So then, my question is, “can you tell me more about that, when you lose it, what happens? When you lose it, what helps you to un-lose it?” – well to find it, to find it. “What helps you to find it?” “Well, you know, my sister I talked to my sister.” “Would be helpful to have your sister in the circle, can you reach out to her and let her know that I’ll be calling her.” And then really making a decision about how one we know that there’s a potential for harm to occur in some way. But we have figured out a way to mitigate that, so that that person, even though their way of dealing with conflict might not be the most restorative going into the room, that we have figured out how to help them to stay on track, to make sure that they are actually showing up as their best self during that process.
TYLER
Troi, as I hear you describe your work. My inner facilitator is picturing how this all is enlivened in the room. And I so appreciate your care and intention, before the events before the circle, even stepping in together. That’s really admirable that you spend so much time really getting to hear from the participants and not just, you know, what’s on their mind, but what their needs are. You know, I want to just ask a little bit more about the techniques too. I know that you have a training series that’s titled Addressing Racism Together, ART. And I know that there are a few techniques that you use there that just I was so curious to hear more about, incorporating poetry or art as a tool to facilitate learning and connection in these spaces. I was wondering if you could just tell us a bit more about that.
TROI
Sure. I myself am a performing artist and have used art as a tool for social justice, and have seen the power of the spoken word. And, you know, other theatrical aspects in allowing people to see feel viscerally the subject matter that we’re talking about that can be really complex, like racism in a way that allows you to understand it, but not run away from it, not be overwhelmed by it. To see people’s humanity in it, and that’s one of the things I love most about that kind of work is that it allows you to help people to feel empathy for people that they might not have felt empathy for as clearly as easily more because they didn’t understand those people. So to help them to understand people that might have been othered. So we intentionally incorporated those artistic elements into the curriculum in order to give people the kinds of possibilities that I just talked about, and the space to really think about how to use this new understanding, in a way that helped to move them towards different actions than they had taken before.
But- but there’s a lot of intentionality around really ensuring the safety, right, as I said, that’s our number one guiding principle, do no harm. So making sure that we have scaffolded people to a very complex understanding of an issue in a way that does not make them run away from that issue, and to help them to be able to deal with some level of discomfort. Because whenever we learn new things, trying new things, you know, learning, we didn’t learn how to roller skate, you know, if- if one roller skates without having some level of discomfort, maybe a scraped elbow, whatever it is, but that discomfort is okay. But because you know, talking about racism, you’re going to have some discomfort, but we don’t want there to be harm. And so we want to ensure that people understand that there might be discomfort to build a tolerance for that, but to do so in a way that allows them to move forward in the most positive way. And that is one of the intentions behind all restorative approaches.
TYLER
I was wondering Troi, if you might have a story, or an example that comes to mind where you’ve seen this transformation, using these techniques, or these invitations into art, or theater, or poetry, in your work.
TROI
I will say that, you know, we use not only the opportunity to hear or view someone performing, but also the experience of writing on your own some poetry, whether one is skilled or not. I am not particularly skilled at poetry. But- and so we do it in a way that allows people who aren’t particularly skilled at poetry to write by just saying, you know what they are-are– for example, we have a timeline that we use as a tool that goes from the 1600s until today, looking at all of one at all, many of the laws and practices that help to embed racism into every system that we have in the United States of America.
So looking at the legislation around and the practices around the Trail of Tears. Looking at legislation and practice, in terms of deciding whether one is white or not, and the arbitrariness of the adjudication around that, you know, judgments that said, we’ve decided that you are not white, because of a reason that is 100% different than what we did, you know, six months ago. And the kinds of inequity that happens because of that, and that is heavy, heavy, heavy information. And then we play music, we’ve used a couple of different kinds of music, one was more choral with different, you know that that had a very calming influence. And then we asked people to write a poem about what they saw, what they felt, what they heard, as we have gone through that information. And people who did not think that they were poets write such beautiful things. And then share them and talk about how really that experience of hearing the information than sitting in a reflective space using this music as a foundation for for calming one’s body, for calming one’s mind. And then putting you in a space where you reflect in a more artistic way.
People have really shared that that experience helped them to see things in a much different way. Helped them to understand and really accept this very difficult and uncomfortable information about our history in a way that allows them to step out of that discomfort or maybe live in it without feeling harmed.
TYLER
Well, Troi, you say you’re not a poet, but hearing you speak about your work really sounds like poetry to me. So thank you for for sharing all of this. It’s beautiful.
TROI
That’s so sweet. Thank you.
MEG
Yeah, and I just I have to say I love the I’m envisioning it. Like you said, I’m envisioning people sitting in that reflective space. And when We come up against challenge, we so often kind of retreat to this very intellectual or highly reactive headspace, depending on what your tendency is. And I never really quite thought about just how powerful it would be to present that information, and then just let people sit with it, and absorb it and process it through art, whatever art form speaks to them. And that’s just a beautiful image to have in your mind. And, yeah, so appreciate you sharing that technique with us Troi.
TROI
Absolutely. You know, it’s, um, as a trainer, I will say, I actually just spoke to a colleague of mine who worked at CRA, very young, very dynamic gentleman by the name of Tom Zoloft, who is not going to be on CRA’s board, he shared a comment about the way that I particularly developed trainings. And he said, “you know, Troi, you write trainings like you write plays, that you’re intentional about scaffolding people to get them.” They need this understanding in order to get to this next understanding in order to get to this next understanding. And I really do. Not that I’m a fantastic playwright, either, you know –
MEG
I’ve seen one of your players, Troi, and I gotta say you are. So you’re being very humble.
TROI
– What, thank you, Meg, I appreciate that. We all often think that our emotions are like, we should be like Spock, that we think that we should be emotionless. But it is our emotions that help us actually make better decisions, if we can get to a place where, you know, we are using those emotions and combining those emotions with the logical half of our brain. But studies show us that people who have lost that emotional part of their brain don’t make good decisions, or they don’t make decisions at all. They are caught up in I don’t, I don’t have a foundation to make this decision, because our emotions help us decide. So we need to put people in a place where they can have both emotions and logic coming together. And that really is the goal, not to talk not to take emotions out. But to allow you to express those emotions, and then to be open to having a more complete understanding of the situation. So that then you can make the best decision.
MEG
So simple, and yet so profound.
TYLER
Thank you so much, Troi. I will just ask maybe one final question for our time today, although I wish and hope you will come visit us again, in the future. But what would be one final practical tip, or wisdom that you would like to share for our listeners out there?
TROI
Well, let me say two things. Be intentional about relationship building. There is something called the magic ratio, which says that in order to have a person be able to deal with critical feedback, more quote, unquote, negative feedback, that there needs to be five times when you have shared positive feedback. Five to one, but we are very good at giving, quote unquote, negative feedback, but not so good at really finding the times to share the positive. And so that helps with relationship building, for sure. When I was a young person I worked on one of my first job was at a group home for kids who were adjudicated because of their behavior. And they were taken out of their home and put in a group home for a year of their life because of it. And a very wonderful man by the name of James Rogers told me Troi, catch them while they’re being good. Now I was 20 something and I’m not 20 something anymore. And but that has stayed with me my entire life. And then I heard about the magic ratio. And I’m like, I’m wondering if James knew about the magic ratio, because essentially that’s what it is, catching folks being good and honoring, celebrating that goodness, and making sure that they know that you have recognized it.
And then two, when there is conflict, don’t run from it. Our body is designed, human beings are designed as many people know for fight, flight, or freeze and we need to walk towards conflict rather than away from it? And that is hard because it is uncomfortable. Conflict is uncomfortable like so that that is part of that process question that you asked me earlier that I did not answer. So wanted to make sure that I had an opportunity. And doing that with young people, you know, really when I like to tell the story, if five year old Troi came up and punched five year old Meg, what’s the first question that we ask five year old Troi? And the first questions generally is – why did you do that Troi. Immediately puts Troi on the defensive, because it doesn’t matter if I’m five or 65. If you ask me why in the middle, I did something in the middle of conflict, I am going to be on the defensive. But if you allow me to tell my story, it says, I am important enough to you to want to hear my side of the story. And that is about that trust building, that relationship building. And then that scaffolds me to the ability to reflect on the impact of what has happened, and who has been impacted, and then begin to build empathy for other people other than myself in that particular situation, which again, scaffolds me to be able to come up with a better solution. So it really is about how do we move people? How do we transform folks from this feeling of discomfort to a feeling of comfort and understanding and empathy and humanity?
MEG
Beautiful. Thank you so much for those final wisdoms, Troi. I really appreciate everything that you’ve shared throughout this conversation today. It has been so wonderful to have you on the show. Thank you.
TROI
You are so welcome. Thank you for having me.
MEG
Yes.
TYLER
Absolutely. Thank you so much Troi.
MEG
[OUTRO MUSIC] Thank you for tuning into another episode of Shift the Power: A Learning-Centered Podcast. This podcast is produced by Global Learning Partners and Greg Tilton with music by Una Walkenhorst. To find out more about Global Learning Partners, whether it be our course offerings, consulting services, free resources or blogs, go to www.globallearningpartners.com. We invite you to sign up for our mailing list, subscribe to our podcast and find us on social media to continue the dialogue. If you enjoy the show, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts or your preferred podcast player. [OUTRO MUSIC FADES]