Aug 3, 2021
Dr. Jane Vella and Rebecca Hutchins chat with Adriano Pianesi – Founder of ParticipAction Consulting and Adjunct Professor at Johns Hopkins University – about the axiom “classrooms can be radical spaces of possibilities.” Like many others, Adriano read Learning to Listen, Learning to Teach and was inspired to reach out to Jane. Since then, he has incorporated the lessons from Jane’s book into his work as a change management consultant with clients like Microsoft and International Monetary Fund (IMF). Adriano and Jane reflect on the immense potential for growth when you unleash people’s natural curiosity and allow them to co-create a vision for change.
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This show is produced by Global Learning Partners and Greg Tilton Jr, with theme music composed by Kyle Donald.
Read the transcripts for the episode below.
JANE
Welcome to Simply True, with yours truly, Dr. Jane Vella. On this podcast, we sit down with dear friends and colleagues from over the years to do one thing: explore the simple truths behind some of my favorite sayings in Dialogue Education.
REBECCA
I’m Rebecca Hutchins, Co-owner of Global Learning Partners and your host for today’s episode of Simply True with Dr. Jane Vella. For today’s episode, we’re joined by Adriano Pianesi to explore the axiom “classrooms can be radical spaces of possibilities.” Welcome Adriano, thanks so much for joining us today.
ADRIANO
A real pleasure.
REBECCA
And I’d love to start by having you say a bit about yourself and how you came to know Jane and Global Learning Partners.
ADRIANO
I’m very excited about being here. This is for me, much bigger than a podcast. I mean, Jane, in a sense, changed my life when I met her. And the story is very simple. I read her book, I was for business in Raleigh and I gave her a call, and she of course, being Jane, she invited me for lunch. And we started a conversation that continues to this day. I am in the business of changing organization, and Jane changed my life. So in a sense, this is very humbling to be here today.
JANE
Beautiful.
REBECCA
Yes, absolutely. I wonder Adriano, if you want to say a bit more about what you do now, as far as being in the business of changing.
ADRIANO
Yeah, I work in organizational transformation. And so a lot of my work is holding spaces for possibility for an organization to actually move into their next stage of their life, I use a lot of techniques that come from a variety of sources, but substantially, we try to bring together in very strong installment, and very concentrated way, the power of people to co-create the future. And so a lot of this work happens in a room, and I have the privilege to actually being there when it happens. And the work and the axiom we’re discussing today is pretty much what I do for a living – creating spaces for people and for possibilities. When I met Jane, I was fascinated with the fact that, for the first time, I noticed that there was an approach that was not the traditional approach. And that resonated very strongly for how inclusive the approach was, how strong on this concept of co-creation, and how very intentional in the idea of creating a space for this to happen. And that was- draw me to this work. I am a Professor at Johns Hopkins Carey Business School. I’m an adjunct there. I’m also a consultant, I have my own consulting group, I am a manager- was a manager for 10, 20 years in large corporation in marketing. And I’m an immigrant to the United States. I moved to Washington- to Miami and then Washington, DC, where I live, in 2004.
REBECCA
Great, Jane, I think it’s a great lead in holding spaces for possibility – or as the axiom goes, classrooms can be radical spaces of possibility. What comes to mind to you Jane, when you hear these phrases?
JANE
I love this arrangement or statement that to me speaks eminently, Adriano, of respect, which is one of our foundational principles. And I can imagine a group of people working with you who are thinking, “this guy really likes us and is really concerned about us. Wow, this is a new situation. And this guy is showing respect for us, by letting us know he expects us to create something appropriate for our particular context.” That’s how I read what you have written, Adriano, I love it. I love the infinite possibilities. And I see that in my own experience, that long experience. I met people along the way who are like you, Adriano, who believed in me, so to speak. And that- what happened, that’s where Global Learning Partners and this beautiful process comes from.
ADRIANO
Yeah, and I have to say that the respect that you’re talking about maybe was what draw me to, to you. I mean, when I called you I was in this inquiry of a variety of alternative approaches to actually express this- that respect in a say- in a way.
JANE
Exactly.
ADRIANO
Yes. And that power of collective learning with that kind of respect was really something that draw me to your way of teaching, which you’re right is, is focused on respect. And, for me, this holy grail of perfect learning that balanced challenge and support was really what I wanted, you know, and giving back to people the freedom to learn, but also unleashing their natural curiosities – that, you know, many of us have lost after many years of schooling, and working in an organization. And so I really wanted to go back to the source, in a sense, of that respect. And then I would say, I found that when- when we connected.
JANE
Beautiful.
REBECCA
Adriano, I wonder if you could share a story that illustrates this idea of holding spaces for possibility.
ADRIANO
Yeah, I mean, maybe I have to share the story of how I got into this, because I do change labs. Those are a large event that range from a variety purposes. But you know, the concept is I run change labs for organizational transformation. So what I do is, I unleash a huge amount of co-creation in a concentrated time of two or three days. And, you know, through that- that work is really about rooted in this concept that knowledge is no longer power, that people have a lot of knowledge it is unevenly distributed. And the only way to actually unleash that knowledge, to deal with the problem that we’re dealing with in today’s world, is to pull the knowledge together coming from different areas. And so there is increasingly in a message of inclusion, and that in that message of inclusion, those three key concepts are fundamental for me. The concept of space, the concept of radical, and the concept of possibilities. And- and so, a story that I can say about this is that this came out of my experience as a consultant. I always use and started working, providing training services. And so what I was doing is teaching, but the classes didn’t look like anything that people would expect. I had been a great fan of Jane’s work, as well as Juanita Brown and David Isaacs at World Cafe. And so a lot of my courses look more like picnic tables, you know, with table cloths and music. And, you know, so the arrangement of the space was an element of the- my design that was always there. And so I started teaching that way, and eventually this turned into organizational transformation events. Because you know, as Jane often say, this is not just about learning, learning ultimately is about change. And so the work was moving into that direction more intentionally. And fast forward, you know, many years later, I did several project with some of my clients, like building a community of practice at the IMF – at the International Monetary Fund, or deploying an Oracle system implementation in the US Marines Association, or launching women leadership positions at Microsoft, or, you know, I mean, different projects or- or creating a more customer service orientation at the US State Department at the leadership level.
JANE
Wow!
ADRIANO
Well, you say, “Wow,” but the truth is, as you know very well, Jane, is with this concept that the unit of change is a small group, and the learning that you can do. And so when I say small project, what I mean is that the principles are the same, creating that kind of idea that small group can change the world.
JANE
Absolutely.
REBECCA
And it amazes me through the series, Simply True, just the variety of stories for these principles of respect, safety, inclusion, and how they really can be applied to so many different situations. Really to any situation, whether it’s in a remote village in Tanzania with illiterate farmers, or working with women in Microsoft. It just blows my mind to hear all the different stories. Jane, what comes to mind for you?
JANE
Yes, Rebecca. Oh, that’s so true dear. And, Adriano, when you speak about your experience, I keep thinking of the adage, “The means is dialogue. The end is learning. The purpose is peace.” I think you, Rebecca, are that story.
REBECCA
Me?
JANE
Yes, indeed! I mean, what Global Learning Partners has become, in terms of the people who are the core group, and the folks who are using it all around the world. As I said earlier, someone believed in me, someone showed me that I had that power. And I didn’t do this, as I’ve said in every one of these podcasts, for the past 20 years, I sold the company in 2001, so for the past 20 years, Jane has been rocking. But do you see what I’m saying, Rebecca? Our- our own experience as, not only as a company, as a- as a community, is having this happen every day, this belief in oneself – if I’m saying what you are saying, Adriano – it’s growing that belief in oneself, because you look at what you have done in this timeframe.
ADRIANO
I am, you know, when people ask me, and tell me this, you know, as an immigrant, I have of course, very strong pride in being an American citizen and, you know, I also have to say, a very, sometime different perspective from coworkers or people I work with. I have to say that I- I don’t know what made me what I did. But I know for a fact that the- the book that I read that day, and that book that I read, “Learning to Listen, Learning to Teach” was, for me, a radical way. I mean, it’s almost like you was talking to my heart so much that I took this, you know, this leap of faith of looking you up in the Yellow Pages. Incredible. I mean that was very incredible. And you know, what was more incredible, and to me, a true American story, is that not only did you answer, but you invited me to lunch. That there was something that – I mean, I remember going back home and tell to my wife, I mean, this is America. I mean, this is an incredible place. You call an author and the author, not only is- responds, but invites you to lunch. Really, that was an incredible moment, and I still treasure that moment. I read the book, that you at the time wrote a dedication, and you wrote: “To Adriano. With respect, Jane.” And this was, like was probably, I would say 15 years ago or something.
JANE
Imagine, imagine.
ADRIANO
So very, very touched by what you- but I have to say, the work that I do, is, you know, sometime can be pretty straightforward. You know, you’re hired by a CEO or by a director who wants to change their departments of the organization. I mean, what we- the insight that we brought to this work, is to discover that people love the change that they create.
JANE
Yes!
ADRIANO
And so that was really what was- what made that work possible. But you know, that insight come from “Learning to Listen, Learning to Teach”.
JANE
Wow.
ADRIANO
You know, because when you convene 100 or 120 people in a room that looks like a Montessori School for adults, and then you- you engineer those high quality interaction around those juicy questions that pull everybody’s knowledge, and then when you walk out with prototypes, not with action items, you know, with actual prototypes – nobody thinks “oh I- we will do that tomorrow.” No, we are doing it already, now.
JANE
Yes.
ADRIANO
And then, you know, it’s an entire other- other paradigm. It’s almost like, you know that African proverb, “if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far go together.” The way I’m trying in my life is about proof that proverb is wrong. I want to go fast and far. You know, and that is really what this work is allowing me to do using the principles from your book.
JANE
I’d like to say I want to catch, dear, the phrase that you used, Adriano. People love the change they create.
ADRIANO
Yes.
JANE
Honey, that we’re going to do a- what do you do cross stitch, or? We’re going to put that someplace, I hope, Rebecca.
REBECCA
I wrote that down as well, Jane.
JANE
Of course you did! Of course you did.
REBECCA
Yes, and Adriano, I was going to ask you what specific story or example comes to mind when you say “people love the change that they create”?
ADRIANO
I mean, this come from the same purpose that I was mentioning, why I met Jane. I mean, the idea of this basic dissatisfaction with what I had seen around me. Being a manager for 10 years in international organization, and having the experience of what is the traditional process of change, which is normally run by engineers with project management charts, with step-by-step, with deliverables, you know. That way of managed change, which I experienced, was something that I, you know, was- wanted to- I had a different experience. I have experienced that that kind of change is not the kind of change that people love. And so, my search for a different approach, my contacting Jane, my working towards the finding a different kind of space for co-creation in those kinds of event was an attempt to go beyond. So a simple story will be there is an organization in the Johns Hopkins systems that a few years ago asked me, if we could do an event like this, they are all over the world. And they add- they wanted to redefine their connection and the relationship between headquarters and periphery. And what we did in this event was pretty much start that process bringing together unexpected invitees, because one of the key principle of this way of working is that you invite people that you would otherwise not invite.
JANE
Yes.
ADRIANO
So, for example, at the IMF they were shocked that I wanted to invite the cleaning service, you know, and the people from the lunch, the catering services. Because they said, “Why? I mean, we have never invited- we never brought them here.” That’s exactly why. Because if you’re working with this perspective of tapping into a variety of- of ideas, you know, we need really everybody. And so and- and then, of course, you know, it’s not that simple, of course. But what I meant to say is that it’s all about having people positive, complexity conscious, prototype and experimentally focused kind of approach. And you do that in a large space. And with this organization, we managed in three days to- to prompt the changes that then they applied in the following two years. Another point that is critical in this kind of working together, is that you don’t do those kind of projects in a month or two. I mean, those are long, long run project. But you know, the power and the principles are all in “Learning to Listen, Learning to Teach”.
JANE
Pardon me. I love you, Adriano.
ADRIANO
They are! You know, it’s just a fact. I made him- I could tell you here that the change lab is based on my research, complexity theory, team dynamics, organizational change, I can make the list of all the courses I’ve been teaching at Hopkins so far. But the truth is that even if those were research perspective that has informed this approach, and even if I have used a lot of large group methods, you know, that we’re not in “Learning to Listen, Learning to Teach” – the point is that those key principles, those key ideas, you know, were all there. I can recognize them in- in much of the work that I do. I mean, I’ve been working with a group in New Orleans recently, doing work – this is the- a group that work for social justice – and, you know, it was incredible to see in a group like that, which is divided by two different languages, how I could actually, almost one by one, mention the principles that we were touching. Especially, for example, this concept of “the death of the professor,” which of course, for- for an actual adjunct professor is really a really radical concept, but a concept that nevertheless is very much alive in- in much of the work that I do.
REBECCA
Thank you so much Adriano, and I’d love to leave our listeners with this last question. As someone who has been applying these principles for quite some time, what’s one final wisdom that you would leave us all with today?
ADRIANO
That we need power and love in doing this work. And the quote from Martin Luther King that “power without love is reckless and abusive. And love without power is ineffective and anemic.” is really the key concept that I think I would like to bring to this. Unfortunately, now we’re in our kind of circle, we focus much more on love. I mean, the problem is those are not two polarities, we need to actually embrace both, and do this work using both power and love.
JANE
Beautiful.
REBECCA
Thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate your time and your perspective greatly.
OUTRO (MEG)
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Simply True with Dr. Jane Vella. This podcast is produced by Global Learning Partners and Greg Tilton, with music by Kyle Donald. If you enjoyed the show, consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts or your preferred podcast player. To find out more about Global Learning Partners, whether it be our course offerings, consulting services or free resources, go to www.GlobalLearningPartners.com. We invite you to sign up for our mailing list, subscribe to our podcast and find us on social media to continue the dialogue.