Aug 31, 2021
Dr. Jane Vella and Rebecca Hutchins talk with Dan Haase, Associate Lecturer at Wheaton College, about the axiom “Hold the opposites” (aka “Fold the opposites”). Dan first learned about Jane’s work years ago when his book group decided to read “Taking Learning to Task”. He became a quick convert to the principles and practices of Dialogue Education and is now a valued member of GLP’s international Certified Network. Jane and Dan share stories of deep learning from both their personal and professional lives on living in the tension between the opposites.
In this episode, Jane credits the alternative form of this axiom, “Fold the Opposites” to Karen Ridout – a past owner and beloved colleague for many years. Karen passed away in February of 2018. We will continue to appreciate and reflect on the important contributions Karen made for years to come.
Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or virtually anywhere podcasts are found!
This show is produced by Global Learning Partners and Greg Tilton Jr, with theme music composed by Kyle Donald.
Read the transcripts for the episode below.
JANE
Welcome to Simply True, with yours truly, Dr. Jane Vella. On this podcast, we sit down with dear friends and colleagues from over the years to do one thing: explore the simple truths behind some of my favorite sayings in Dialogue Education.
REBECCA
Hello, and welcome to Simply True with Dr. Jane Vella. I’m your host for today’s episode, Rebecca Hutchins, the Chief Business Officer and co-owner of Global Learning Partners. Today, Jane and I are joined by Dan Haase to explore the axiom “hold the opposites,” also known by some as, “fold the opposites.” Welcome, Dan, thanks for joining us today.
DAN
Thanks. Great to be here.
REBECCA
Let’s begin by rooting ourselves in our history. Dan, can you tell us a bit about yourself and how you came to know Jane and Global Learning Partners?
DAN
Sure, I teach at Wheaton College, small Christian liberal arts school outside Chicago. And my first introduction with Jane actually came – a colleague of mine had earned himself a grant where one of these great opportunities of faculty, where they buy books for you and you sit around with your colleagues and dialogue and engage in reading. And one of the texts, that was selected for this time of gathering was Jane’s, “Taking Learning to Task,” and we spent a couple months as a faculty group working through that book, actually doing kind of learning tasks and meeting over a meal, and dialoguing through some of what we were learning. So, that was my my first introduction and my colleague who had earned the grant and I, were quite taken by it and that led us to GLP and beginning to engage in some of the courses.
REBECCA
Great! And of course, we’re here today to discuss the axiom, “hold the opposites.” So, Jane, where does this axiom come from?
JANE
Well, it’s been a part of my understanding of my life and of the world, because the opposites kept appearing. I wanted to live in a simple way and I had to pay the mortgage. I mean, the opposites kept appearing and then I read this phrase, in nobody less than Carl Jung. Can you imagine? He’s the one I believe who coined it, I’m not sure of that, but it struck me, “hold the opposites,” and then our dear Karen Ridout, my teacher and mentor for many years, decided that “hold the opposites” which Jung explained by saying, “when you hold the opposites, you control the energy, there’s energy between them, and you use that energy.” And Karen decided that she was going to try “fold the opposites.” And I like that even better, because I wanted to live simply. I had to pay the mortgage. But I could decide how I could simply pay the mortgage. I could decide different ways of paying the mortgage. I don’t know if that makes sense, but the source of the “fold” was Karen Ridout, I wanna – I want to celebrate her.
DAN
I actually didn’t know that aspect of the story. I mean, I first came across this axiom in this way, actually, had the joy of engaging the “Advanced Learning Design” course with you and with Karen.
JANE
Yes, yes, and Jim!
DAN
Yeah and it was in that space, where I remember us having a conversation in the living room about this, and Karen was also the one who instructed me during what was then the, “Learning to Listen,” which became the Foundations of Dialogue Education course. And so it’s neat to have that that connection there, I –
JANE
Yes, yes. That was Karen’s insight. God bless her. Yes, great lady, great lady.
DAN
Yes. Good.
JANE
Yeah, I’m sitting in that same living room.
DAN
Right.
REBECCA
Well, Jane, thanks for sharing that piece of the history behind this axiom and where “fold the opposites” comes from. It’s so important. So, I’m wondering if each of you maybe, Dan, you could go first talk a bit about what “hold the opposites” or “fold the opposites” means to you?
DAN
It’s interesting, I think the distinction I sometimes make as I think about this, this idea of “holding the opposites” almost seems kind of like this – ugh, well, it’s a state of maturation, I suppose. You know, this idea of all of a sudden realizing there’s – there’s complexity in the world and there’s these things that are – seem maybe in variance to one another in some kind of extreme, and that holding them out in front of us, doing that work of kind of engagement, dialogue, whatever it is to interact. And, you know, the – the thing that strikes me is, the reason I like the idea of the “fold the opposites” versus the “hold the opposites,” “the hold the opposites,” almost has a little bit of a disposition of distance, which I think can be valuable. But the “fold the opposites,” keeps that same kind of disposition of distance, but there’s, instead of maybe just being a cognitive kind of ascent, it seems much more affective to-
JANE
Yes, yes.
DAN
-and that’s the piece that I really like, of playing those two axioms together in their similar frame. It really weaves together for me this – this movement of the cognitive and the affective, really coming together for – for deeper dialogue, more enriched learning. So, I – that’s one of the reasons I think, for me in the work that I’m doing as a college professor, where so much is this kind of rational, academic, linear, kind of “let’s just observe the world from afar,” and inviting my students into, well, and let’s also – let’s also enter into this practice of not just objectively kind of looking at things, but how are we fully embodied in the midst of this kind of work?
JANE
Yes. Beautiful, Dan.
REBECCA
Yes, thank you, Dan. Jane, what would you add to that?
JANE
I think of this period of pandemic and it has been the most quiet time in my life. In my whole life, I have never had such a time of quiet. At the same time, my experience, and that’s why I agree so much with you, Dan, that this touches a wholeness, that again, going back to dear Karen, Karen’s line that she never omitted saying 17 times a day, “it’s all connected.”
DAN
Yes, yeah.
JANE
So, when I think of it, this has been the most quiet time in my whole life and I don’t know when I have done more useful, I think, to me, and to some other folks, more useful work. And, if that ain’t “holding the opposites”! Because I’m doing the work out of a resting period, a quiet period. I’m not running around after my tail, as I have done for 89 years, but- I’m not racing to here and there and Indonesia, Sudan. Oh, come on, enough already. I’m sitting in the rocking chair, in the room where we studied, the room where it happened. How about a song?
DAN
Yes!
JANE
But really, it startles me, it surprises me every day. And, it’s not that I’m trying to work, I’m not trying to work. I want to say “fold the opposites” is not a command, it’s an awareness.
DAN
Yes.
JANE
The opposites fold. Hey, there’s another axiom. I mean, nature – in nature, look at this, look at the spring time. There’s a lot of opposites out there.
DAN
Yeah, that’s good.
REBECCA
Yeah, that is great. I like that you mentioned it’s an awareness, Jane, thanks for that.
JANE
Well, for me, that’s what it has been, Rebecca, I’m describing. I’m being aware of my awareness.
REBECCA
Well, I’d love to take it a step further and invite you both to illustrate this for our audience and our listeners. So, I invite each of you to describe a time or share a story when this axiom particularly rang true.
DAN
Yeah, you know, I like this, this idea of awareness and it is another word I often use is, just this attending.-
JANE
Yes!
DAN
-This being fully present. And, you know, it’s an aspect of mindfulness, which there’s a disposition of gratitude which seems to be at the center, there’s a curiosity, a wonder, all of these – kind of – almost even positive emotions that are at the center of this kind of way of being in the world. I was – I was even thinking about how I was sharing with my students yesterday, you know, oftentimes we live in these kind of negative stories and negative stories can be so exhausting, even if they are somewhat true. And, there’s a way, I think, with this idea of the opposites, you realize like, oh, they’re there might be more than just the way I’m looking at it right now. And-
JANE
Aha!
DAN
-how do we enter into that deeper story? One very tangible way where I’ve seen this in my life is, you know, I lost my mother when I was 13. And, I remember having an experience, this is one of those kind of transformational moments in life where we were in the funeral home and you know, mom’s open casket is up at the front and we’re I was in the back with some family members, and we got telling a story about mom and something that had taken place. And, there we are in the in the funeral home, just in laughter in the back room and I just thought, isn’t this fascinating that there – there literally can be laughter in a funeral home. That we live in that kind of world where those kinds of opposites can be deeply experienced and held and it was a very healing moment for me, as maybe confusing as it was for me, as a young child. But, I think there’s, you do realize, it’s in that moment where you experience some of this kind of maturation that I think is very much at the center of this kind of axiom.
JANE
Beautiful, Dan, beautiful. I think of my own experience of being an older woman, I get to the mailbox and back and I have – I use a walker, okay, I’m safe, I won’t fall, but that’s my hike for the day. And, I’m glad to do it. I walk around the house, I try to, you know, stretch in all the things. However, this looks like incapacity, but talk about “fold the opposites.” Guess what? Because I am not able to shop or really cook or certainly use the vacuum cleaner. Of course, that’s been going on for a long time. Guess what, people are coming to my house and – and knocking at the door and saying what can I do? I’m not joking. I’m choking here, in tears. That’s, I think what I mean by being aware of “fold the opposites.” The laughter at your mother’s funeral is a wonderful example, sweetheart.
REBECCA
Yeah, thank you both for sharing those very personal stories. And, Dan, I’m wondering, you know, you’ve taught so many students over the years, I’m wondering what story from your classroom might come to mind when you consider “hold the opposites” or “fold the opposites?”
DAN
Yeah, that’s a good question. I, you know, I think some of the ways that I’ve experienced this with my work with my students has very much been connected to the work that happens in the time that I spend with them in my office for my office hours. Partly because so much of the work that I do with students is interpersonal kind of learning. And, much of that learning actually takes place outside of the classroom in the midst of the kind of the way that I’m – I’m able to teach through office hours of just engaging with students in relationship. And, one of the things has been so remarkable for me is watching these students come into this space with me and we begin to kind of process and dialogue through the things that they’re learning, and inevitably, it brings up in them, these experiences that they’ve had, where they have failed, they are working through issues of just brokenness, certain kind of longings and desires and what it looks like to engage in being human well, in this world. Searching for those aspects of what is good and true and beautiful. And, in the midst of those conversations and the articulation of kind of how they’re burdened in a variety of different kinds of ways – I think it’s in that space, where one of the things always remarkable to me is, and tears will emerge, and this articulation of these failings and in those moments, it’s often in those moments, I often tell my students, you know, what’s what’s remarkable about this encounter that we’re having right now, as much as it contains scars and failures and those kinds of things, I know both of us are going to leave this space today, living a better life. Learning to hope for better things, finding this seed that’s been planted, where there’s brokenness that’s opening into something that’s going to bloom and hopefully bring forth more fruit and more seed.
JANE
Beautiful, beautiful.
DAN
And, I think it’s that experience, of kind of learning how to hold this kind of tension and that’s often the – the invitation I give to my students, this invitation to like, how are you learning to live in the tension? Which, I think is another way of saying, how are you “holding the opposites?” How are you- How are you engaging in these emotions that spread across a whole human frame from you know, joy to sorrow and everything in between? And, it’s in that space and learning how to kind of dwell, well, in those experiences that I think we find some of our best human flourishing kind of comes forward.
JANE
Beautiful. And that’s your experience, Dan. And, that’s why it carries so much weight for the – for all of us listening to it. You have authority, because it’s an authentic, transparent experience. And, that, who’s learning here? Dan is learning-
DAN
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
JANE
-Jane is learning, we’re all learning. I love the axiom, “dialogue is not between a teacher and a learner, but among learners, of whom the teacher is one.”
DAN
Yup, yup.
REBECCA
Yes, and it does sound so authentic, Dan, and thanks for sharing that, your students are very lucky to have you and, you know, as a mom of a 21 year old college student, I can completely relate to some of what you were sharing, all of those emotions that they go through and – and that very important, you know, phase of young adult life.
DAN
Yeah, yeah.
REBECCA
Thank you.
JANE
Wow, his – your students, Dan, and also your family, I think how lucky they are – to have a dad like you.
DAN
Yeah. Well, it’s, you know, it’s – it’s definitely good and meaningful work to have right?
JANE
It is.
DAN
This invitation to human relationship, which is so at the core of what GLP is trying to do and what’s at the center of Dialogue Education. It’s this, it’s – it’s an invitation to relationship and there’s that holding that opposite is, in a sense, like, there’s a difference between you and me and how do we learn to hold that together? There’s an embrace – there’s an embrace that happens.
JANE
It is dear.
REBECCA
Well, thank you so much, Dan, for joining Jane and I today. And, as someone who’s been practicing Dialogue Education for quite some time, what’s one final wisdom that you’d like to leave us with today? Maybe it’s an insight, or maybe a new axiom that’s been simply true for you?
DAN
Yeah, so, I appreciate that question. I was – I was thinking about beforehand and I think this ties in is another way of maybe framing this kind of “hold the opposites,” “fold the opposites,” is it’s an axiom, that’s rung really true to me and something that I’ve been encouraging my students to – to wrestle with as they’re thinking about living in the tension. And, it really is simply, the story you tell yourself, is the story you live in. And, I’m finding that one of the things that is, I think, really difficult in our current cultural moment, is – is I think, too often we’re telling too simplistic stories. We’re telling single stories where we’re summarizing things with one adjective, and there’s more complexity than that, it’s never that simple and to get into those deeper human relationships, it requires long sentences. I don’t know. Maybe there’s another axiom there. You know, relationships require long sentences.
JANE
I love it, I love it. I’m sentenced to being long with you, Dan. I’m delighted with that sentence. I accept, I’m guilty, fully guilty.
DAN
Wonderful! Well you know, “no laughing, no learning,” Jane!
REBECCA
Absolutely! Dan, thank you so much for your time today. I have learned a great deal, so, thank you for that and we greatly appreciate it.
DAN
Yeah. What a delight, what a delight.
JANE
Thank you, Dan.
DAN
Yeah, thank you, Jane.
OUTRO (MEG)
Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Simply True with Dr. Jane Vella. This podcast is produced by Global Learning Partners and Greg Tilton, with music by Kyle Donald. If you enjoyed the show, consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts or your preferred podcast player. To find out more about Global Learning Partners, whether it be our course offerings, consulting services or free resources, go to www.globallearningpartners.com. We invite you to sign up for our mailing list, subscribe to our podcast and find us on social media to continue the dialogue.