Sep 20, 2022
In adult learning settings, we’ve seen that “sit and get” rarely works to help adults gain the knowledge they need to succeed. To understand what the latest in brain science tells us about why a traditional approach often fails adults, we talk to LaDonna Pavetti, Vice President for Family Income Support Policy at Center on Budget & Policy Priorities (CBPP). LaDonna shares the critical role that Executive Function skills play in how we learn. She explains how, as designers of learning experiences, we often underestimate what it takes for our learners to absorb and be able to use new information. Listen to this episode for insights on how to apply the latest in brain science to your approach to learning and teaching.
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This show is produced by Global Learning Partners and Greg Tilton Jr.
Theme music: ‘Pretty Face’ by Una Walkenhorst.
Read transcripts for the episode below.
MEG
[INTRO MUSIC] Hello, and welcome to Shift the Power: A Learning-Centered Podcast, where we talk about the revolutionary power of a learning-centered approach. Through this podcast, we hope to inspire creative thinking and provide practical tools and techniques to deepen learning through dialogue.
MEG
Welcome to Shift the Power. I’m your host Meg Logue and today I’m joined by Dr. LaDonna Pavetti, the Vice President for Family Income Support Policy at Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, aka CBPP. So we’ve come together today to talk about what adult educators can learn from brain and behavioral science and the latest research on executive function. Welcome, Donna. so wonderful to have you here with us today.
LADONNA
Thank you. Glad to be here.
MEG
Yeah, we’re so glad to have you. So just to start us off, I would love it. If you would give a quick introduction. Tell us a little bit about yourself and your organization.
LADONNA
Okay, I’ve been in my current position at CBPP for 13 years. And before coming here, I worked at Mathematica Policy Research. And I was there for 12 years. And that’s where I first started working with Global Learning Partners. So I have been connected with Global Learning Partners for a long time. So just a little bit about the center. We are a nonpartisan research and policy institute. And what we aim to do is to advance federal and state policies that help build a nation where everyone regardless of their income, their race, ethnicity, sex orientation, gender identity, zip code, immigration status, or disability status, have the resources they need to thrive and to share in the nation’s prosperity. And the work that I’m going to talk about today is part of our efforts to ensure that work and training programs maximize their effectiveness by adopting evidence-based approaches that really are grounded in both behavioral and neuroscience as well as other disciplines.
MEG
Wonderful, thank you. That was such a beautiful and succinct explanation of all the incredible work that you all do. I was very privileged to have the opportunity to work with you a couple of years ago around some executive function training, and also wonderful to have just a longtime veteran of the GLP sphere. So thank you so much for joining us. I would love to touch on, specifically executive function. And for our listeners who are unfamiliar who have may have never heard that term. What do we mean when we say executive function? And what does brain and behavioral science tell us about it?
LADONNA
Sure. So the place to start is that we know there are some core capabilities that lead to adult success. And executive function is a key component of those core capabilities. And executive functions are skills. They’re skills that help us to focus to make decisions, to set goals, to control impulses, execute plans, and adjust plans when necessary. So I think a good way to think about is there a set of skills that operate in the background. They’re often skills that we’re not thinking of, we’re often thinking, are we good at math, are we good at writing, and we think of those as hard skills sometimes. But executive function skills are really skills that are operating in the background, but are really critical to our success, both in childhood, but also as in adulthood.
LADONNA
And these skills are skills that begin developing early in life, but they’re malleable into adulthood. And we draw on these skills all the time. And we’re setting and achieving goals that are meaningful to us. And I think one really important fact about executive function skills that we’ve learned particularly from brain science is that executive function skills are often taxed in ways that we don’t think about, and that they we often refer to our bandwidth is limited. So we don’t have the capability to do absolutely everything. And what that means, because it’s limited, is that we can only focus on so many things at a time. And the issues and needs that are most salient for us are the ones that are going to take up our bandwidth. And we know that things like lack of sleep or not having enough food to eat or not having a place to live, all of those things, really tax our executive function skills and limit our bandwidth and make it really hard to focus on other things. And so just sort of imagine during COVID especially, we have a lot of tax of our bandwidth for parents who were home with kids who are trying to work and take care of kids, and you do what you believe is the most important. And we just, we know that we don’t have the bandwidth to do everything.
MEG
Yeah, as we like to think that we are all multitaskers who can tackle the world all at once. But of course, there’s very real limited bandwidth. And I think we’re all kind of coming to terms with that right now, as you know, as we’ve all struggled during the pandemic, as you said. I’m curious if you could give an example of a specific executive function skill, and how that can plays out.
LADONNA
So one skill that we don’t think of often, because it’s one we use all the time, is planning, breaking things into steps. Like often we just go about and say, we’re going to do XY and Z. And we don’t stop to think about how many steps it takes to do that. So if you just think about going to the grocery store, when you go to the grocery store, when you’re making a list, you are actually thinking about what it is that you are going to cook for the week and what groceries you need. And that’s drawing on some future planning and thinking; it’s drawing on what we refer to as metacognition is that you know, what you need. So planning is an important and common executive function skill, that we may not think of it as an executive function skill, but it’s a really critical one. Absolutely.
MEG
So one thing, kind of through our learning centered approach at GLP, we often think of this kind of traditional understanding of the teacher and the student or learner and the dynamic that that holds. And that’s something that we are really trying to counteract or have a paradigm shift away from that model. And in that typical model, really, the teacher is seen as responsible for imparting knowledge, they are the expert in the room. Whereas the adult learners who are sitting in their classroom, tend to be assumed to have limited knowledge about the subject that they’re there to learn, not seen as having so much to offer, they’re there to receive the knowledge. So we think of it maybe as that sit and get model. At GLP, we really feel strongly that that typical model doesn’t work for most people and kind of underestimates adult learners. So it ultimately doesn’t serve the learners or the learning, and probably also the teacher as well. And I see in executive function whenever we’ve talked about this in the past, you always really frame it as: every single person has their own strengths and struggles or strengths and challenges when it comes to executive function. And they’re not a static thing. There’s something that can be developed over time through practice, or, like you said, can be taxed at different times. And maybe something that’s usually a strength can become a struggle because of the context or the situation. So I’m just curious to hear from you through the lens of executive function and behavioral science and neuroscience, where and how do you see us underestimating what it takes for adult learners to absorb and be able to use new information?
LADONNA
So the first thing I would say is that, I think that one of the things that is really important is often when you have a group of adult learners, they’re all in different places. But what’s really important is figuring out how do you make the learning relevant to everybody in the room. So I think really to use some of GLPs practices is really anchoring it in people’s own experiences, because then it becomes relevant, and it actually taxes their executive function skills less, right, because you have a place in your filing system to be able to actually connect why it’s relevant to you. So I think we underestimate that. And the importance of really anchoring learning of why it matters for people and the only people who know why it matters are people themselves. So it’s really having to create an environment where you give people the space to think about why they were there, why they What did they want to get out of it? What are their goals? So to make it relevant, we have limited bandwidth, so what salient to us is what sort of takes priority? So really figuring out given everything else is likely going on in people’s lives? How do you really make this relevant to what’s going on? So I think that’s one thing that we don’t often do enough of. Another aspect of it is, recognize that everybody does have different bandwidths. So trying to integrate into what we do different styles of learning so that everybody gets something from it. Again, you’re never going to know that. So the way to do it is to mix things up and to present information in different ways so people can absorb it in different ways.
LADONNA
And then another aspect is that learning is only good if people really can use it. And so one of the things that we often do is, and this is something that I have been struck by in my own sort of learning, is that I have gone to training courses or whatever. And I’ve left those training courses feeling, wow, bye. And I go back to my office, and I go back to business as usual, because I haven’t built in the time it takes to actually integrate that learning. And often, the learning is not imparted in a way where I’m given space in the learning to actually think about how am I going to take this, and what changes am I going to make so that I leave with a plan. And again, I started out saying planning is a really important executive function skill. I believe that if we don’t really integrate those steps of having people leave with concrete ideas of what they’re going to do, that often learning gets left at the door, and doesn’t get integrated into our work in the way that we would hope that it would.
MEG
So true, there have been, even like you said, in a situation where you have this amazing learning experience, there’s a lot of stuff that were your best intentions, you would love to bring back to your work and apply in all the things that you do. But you’re so right, if you don’t give the space within the learning event to plan how you’re going to apply that. Yeah, the best intentions can still, I don’t want to say fail us, but they can still fail us, for lack of a better word. I’m excited to hear you use the word anchor in the beginning of your response. And it brings us to that the 4A model, the Anchor Add Apply Away. And really, I think what you’re speaking to, is that away that opportunity to say, Okay, I’ve routed this knowledge through the anchor in something that is in my existing experience. I’ve anchored that new knowledge. I’ve added some new knowledge. I’ve applied that, I’ve done something with that new knowledge in the space of this learning event. And now we also cannot forget that critical step of away, of how am I going to take this away from this space of this learning event and really take it away into my actual setting in my own context. So thank you for highlighting that it’s a critical step that we can’t forget.
MEG
So I’m curious, what other insights might you have, from brain behavioral science to kind of explain why that traditional approach doesn’t work for so many people? What do you see is kind of the critical disconnect with that traditional approach.
LADONNA
So I think we often don’t think about how much skill is involved in actually absorbing and using new knowledge. And that really is a part of executive function, right? executive function is saying, How can I take this and translate it into a goal for myself? How can I come up with a plan? How am I going to execute that plan? And if the plan doesn’t work? How am I going to redo it? We think of people often as passive learners and not as active learners. And I think what executive functions tells us is that to be able to take the whatever we’ve learned, and to really apply it is a very active process. And so it’s really trying to think about how do we make sure that we are recognizing that there are a lot of skills? Those are skills involved in doing that? And how do we really make sure that we’re recognizing, one that people are different places, and some people are going to be really good at setting goals and developing plans and other people are not, but some people are going to be really good at executing. And so there’s all different ways in which where people are going to be strong. And what you have to do is, I think, really think about a process that taps into people’s strengths and creates a process to help them build the skills that may not be as strong. So I think that, I guess if there’s one thing I would highlight most of all, is just the idea that executive function skills are skills, and that they are skills that really are critical, going from point of taking new knowledge and being able to use it and make meaning out of it. And without recognizing the skills that are involved in doing that, we often are left with people having a good hour or two or even a day long and not really having an impact the way they do things in the way that we would hope that they would.
MEG
So I’m curious to hear an example of a training or a program where you’ve really seen the science applied effectively and what the result has been.
LADONNA
Sure. So I’ll use an example. One of the models that we have done some work with is a model called WOOP which stands for a wish, outcome, obstacle and plan. And it really sort of taps into self regulation, which is an important part of executive function. And what’s really powerful about WOOP is that it really helps people to take a step back, and to think about something that they want to accomplish, and why they want to accomplish it. And what might get in the way, and then coming up with a plan for what do they do if that gets in the way. So you could imagine using that at the beginning of any training session, to really get people to, again, make it their own and make it important to them.
LADONNA
So I worked with an organization in New York that operates a training program for people who receive cash assistance, and are looking for jobs, they decided that they really wanted to start their orientation by that what they saw prior to that was that people would come in, and then we got a lot of information on what the program was and what they were going to have to do. People were not very engaged. When they started doing WOOP, what happened was, it really shifted people and engaged people in really thinking about themselves and what they wanted to get out of the program. So they have been doing that probably for two or three years. And the staff love it, because they feel like it really sets people up for success in a way that what they did previously did not. And the people that they work with, feel like what it does for them is that it really gets them thinking about what they want to do. And so it makes everything that comes after that much more meaningful to them. So again, it’s something that takes a relatively short amount of time to do. But it really does set that up of engaging people in a way to may have them thinking about something that is meaningful. And thinking internally about the why, why it matters. And again, the planning, and then the obstacles that might get in the way in the planning. So it’s a very sort of step by step, which makes it easy for people to use, both in that setting and when they leave there.
MEG
I’m curious to hear also bringing it back a little bit to one of the projects you and I had the pleasure of working on together, the EF Works Library. A couple of other programs that we highlighted on that website EFworkslibrary.org where there were other programs that have applied those executive function principles to build more effective human service programs. I wonder if you could speak to that for a moment as well?
LADONNA
Yes, so for that project, we developed a model that we call Goal Plan Do Review and Revise, GPDRR. Some of the work we’ve done, building on work of Dick Guare, who is a psychologist from New Hampshire, who really helped us get started with this work. He identifies 12 executive function skills. And one of the things that became clear to us as we were doing this work is for people to keep track of all 12 of those skills is really hard. And so what we wanted to do is to say how could we come up with a framework that embeds those skills in the process that is more familiar to people. And so the Goal Plan, Do Review and Revise basically takes what many people already do, and makes it much more explicit. So having people think about, Okay, what are my goals? What is my plan for getting the goals done? How am I going to execute the plan? And then how am I going to review it and decide whether it works, because so many things sort of are iterative.
LADONNA
So we have a couple of examples. We just recently worked with Vermont human services agencies, to really train in that. And what that really has done there, and Oklahoma is also using it to train all of their caseworkers who come on to their staff, is what it does is really get people to shift the power dynamics. So rather than telling people what they have to do, it’s really starting from a position of saying what matters to you, and what do you want to accomplish. So it really starts from the very beginning of trying to recognize that people are much more likely to really get something out of a training or to actually stick with a program, if they start out with something that is meaningful to them. So it’s very similar to what you described in the four A’s and the anchor is starting at a point of saying what’s really matters to you. And so yeah, so I have to say, I like the simplicity of that model. One of the terms I learned in doing this work, was the “adjacent possible?” Thinking, what’s your ideal? And what can you do that takes people from where they are currently, and you take a step that’s adjacent to that, so that it makes it much more feasible for people to actually do something with it. And so it feels to me that the Goal Plan Do Review and Revise framework was really taking what people ere already doing, but making it much more intentional and recognizing and connecting the skills to those four steps. And really giving people some practical guidelines on how they could actually help people aT each step along the way. And to really identify where there might be weaknesses and put more of their effort on those skills. So being able to identify where things might fall apart for people, and really putting some effort there rather than treating everybody the same.
MEG
Love that! GPDRR. Bringing back fond memories of our time working together on that as well. I’m curious, have you heard any stories from the folks in Vermont or in Oklahoma about what that’s looking like in practice now that they’ve had a chance to learn that new model.
LADONNA
So just the context for Vermont. Vermont was the human service agency that was running a mandatory work program where they were really putting a lot of constraints on what people can do. And they passed legislation this year that really gets rid of that model. So the model now is that it really is starting with asking people, what matters to them, what is important to them. So it really has shifted the whole focus of their program. I think that the one thing that they would say from that experience is that it’s a work in progress. And it will take time to really change the way people approach their work over the long term. Tthat people have gotten very used to be more of a compliance oriented way of doing their work. And in some ways, that’s easier for staff. It’s just they check the boxes. And I think that what GPDRR does is make it much more intentional and much more centered on families and what matters for them.
MEG
Beautiful. Yeah, no big shifts happen overnight. But it’s very exciting to hear that they’re in the process of undergoing a pretty incredible paradigm shift across the state. I look forward to hearing how it goes.
LADONNA
Yeah. And what we often see is it takes one state to sort of make a shift like that, and then others follow. So hopefully, that will be the beginning of sort of significant changes that really undo some pretty harmful practices and those programs.
MEG
The first domino.
LADONNA
Yes, exactly.
MEG
Wonderful. Well, Donna, as you know, a lot of our folks who are listening today are adult educators. Some of them may work in workforce development, and some of them do not. What insights do you feel executive function and behavioral science can offer to adult educators who don’t see themselves as working with learners who really need help setting goals? How can these insights still apply to really any learning event or program?
LADONNA
So I think that it’s being mindful, everything is built on skills, and what it takes to integrate whatever you learn into whatever you’re going to do and how it will change. That taking time, either before you actually attend a learning event, to encourage people to really think about what are their goals? What do they want to get out of it? So I think that you can both integrate it at the beginning to get people primed to be able to use it. And also being very mindful about doing it during a learning event of really helping people to think about how will they take the information they get and actually develop a plan use it. So you think you can do it at both ends to really help the learning stick for people?
MEG
Wonderful. Yeah, even when we don’t think necessarily the content is related to goal setting or creating a plan and executing a plan. Like you said, it’s always going to be relevant, because anytime we’re learning something new, we need to plan how we’re going to use that.
LADONNA
Exactly.
MEG
Thank you so much for joining us today. Donna, I’m going to move us into our closing and I would love to hear just one final practical tip or wisdom that you would like to share for our listeners from your decades of experience in this field.
LADONNA
So I actually want to end with something that I was one of the first things I learned from Global Learning Partners. My first introduction to the Global Learning Partners was planning a meeting. And I had done an agenda and had all these learning sessions and the person that I was working with said you have too much what for the when. And that has stuck with me. And I think that the more I’ve gotten into executive function, I have realized that we often really focus on content. And we try and impart a lot of content to people. And I think that what I’ve learned with executive function is that it is better to sacrifice some of the learning to make sure that the learning sticks and that people will use it. We want people to learn, we want people to take it away. We want people to integrate it in what they do. And I think what executive function really tells us is that sometimes we overload people with information without recognizing the skills that it takes to actually go the next step and use it in a meaningful way.
MEG
I love that. “Too much what for the when” is a favorite axiom or idiom at Global Learning Partners. Thank you so much, Donna for joining us today and for sharing all of your incredible insights on executive function skills, and the insights that has to offer for all of us as adult educators and teachers. We’re just very grateful for you taking the time.
LADONNA
Thank you for having me.
MEG
[OUTRO MUSIC] Thank you for tuning into another episode of Shift the Power: A Learning-Centered Podcast. This podcast is produced by Global Learning Partners and Greg Tilton with music by Una Walkenhorst. To find out more about Global Learning Partners, whether it be our course offerings, consulting services, free resources or blogs, go to www.globallearningpartners.com. We invite you to sign up for our mailing list, subscribe to our podcast and find us on social media to continue the dialogue. If you enjoy the show, please consider leaving us a review on Apple Podcasts or your preferred podcast player. [OUTRO MUSIC FADES]